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karentraviss: Nuts or...there but for the grace of God?

karentraviss ([info]karentraviss) wrote,
@ 2006-04-13 00:53:00

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Current mood:Look, Sir! Truthiness!

Nuts or...there but for the grace of God?
I've been taking a nasty journalistic look at the pathology of obsession in relation to talifandoms, and in the course of turning up a few academics and researchers into this kind of behaviour, I was directed to this fascinating piece. Read carefully, and feel the deja vu:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/08/03/DDG0RE1DDI1.DTL

It all went to rat-shit when someone called one faction "delusional":

Anelli, 25, who works as a journalist when she isn't overseeing the Leaky Cauldron, says that most abuse came from a small faction of vociferous fans. "They've lost the ability to divorce themselves between what J.K. Rowling is doing and what they'd like to see happen, and they've taken their disappointment and projected it onto her," she says. "I can totally understand how you could be upset if your preference didn't happen, but I can't understand or tolerate that people who claim to be her fans can be so mean to her."

But it got me thinking.

Remember the study into the psychology of terrorism that I blogged about? The one that found suicide bombers weren't the frothing loonies we expected? It wouldn't leave my brain. And having gone down the conventional track that folks who threaten to kill authors for whacking a favourite character or getting into really unpleasant fights over the length of an SSD (or clone numbers...) must all share the same abnormal psychology, I wondered if I might be looking the wrong way. In psychology, a fruit-loop isn't always quite the fruit-loop the symptoms suggest. Things can look the same on the surface, but spring from many different roots.

This is a quick primer into terror psychology:

http://www.ssrc.org/sept11/essays/mccauley.htm


The name Talifan might be more apt than I ever thought, and [info]rc_ghost's splendid phrase internet madrasas equally revealing.

Two key elements leap out at me: the insular nature of the deviant group, their previous normality until exposed to some idea or personal influence, and the "downward spiral" effect of them vying with each other to be more extreme - best described by former members of the Baader Meinhof gang in frank TV interviews.

This is clearly a universal phenomenon, but right now I'm not sure if I'm looking at one syndrome or a mix of aberrant behaviours manifesting similar symptoms. The internet element is a significant one in this, I feel. I get a whiff of Aspergers, OCD, religious orthodoxy, plain old normal human susceptibility, and a dozen other things.

And, yes, some of them - maybe most - might just be normal humans,and thus easily led and prone to conform.

Just like the clones*, in fact. How ironic.

But I need to unravel this.

I'll keep you abreast of what other dingbattery I unearth (every tie-in writer has a stack, I know) but at the moment I'm on the hunt for any academic who's done research into the psychology of obsession and anti-social behaviour among fans, be that in the context rock stars, actors or just grunt hacks like me.

Fascinating. Utterly fascinating. My gut reaction is that they all need garotting, but my rational self finds it all...fascinating.

(*Except the clones have sex lives. Chicks dig armour. )



(Post a new comment)


[info]punkinart
2006-04-13 12:30 am UTC (link)
Yeah that Aneli thing at leaky was pretty rough .I'm a potter geek too, aside for showing some serious clone love, and it all went down over something called 'shipping', which is just a whole other can of worms.

THe whole thing is mad.

....
And this chick DEFINITELY digs the armor.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]karentraviss
2006-04-13 12:33 am UTC (link)
Any thoughts on the psychology of this behaviour?

The glib journo in me thinks that at the abusive/ zealotry extreme - if they're over 14 - they're sickos, and not in a heroic clone pilot sort of way. But the sensible logical Karen seeks explanation.

Or at least explanation before she Verps the twats.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]punkinart, 2006-04-13 12:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 01:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]stimarco, 2006-04-13 01:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]stimarco, 2006-04-13 01:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 01:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]snarkel, 2006-04-13 05:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 08:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]punkinart, 2006-04-13 12:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 01:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]punkinart, 2006-04-13 01:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 01:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]punkinart, 2006-04-13 01:46 am UTC

[info]stimarco
2006-04-13 01:13 am UTC (link)

The more I read about fandoms, the more I wonder whether I really want a career in writing.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]stimarco, 2006-04-13 12:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 12:16 pm UTC

[info]punkinart
2006-04-13 01:31 am UTC (link)
you 'friend' the good ones and 'block' the jerks, dear. As 'delusional' as i get, if i ever dabbled in writing (art first, yo), i would be doing it to really entertain myself, and when someone was like 'Hey, your character did this, or that. why?' i'd be suprised like someone was intruding on my play time ;P

If you want to be a writer, thats what you do.. I mean, crazy fans are good for publicity. Just look at Dan Brown.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 01:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]punkinart, 2006-04-13 01:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 02:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]punkinart, 2006-04-13 02:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]stimarco, 2006-04-13 10:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]punkinart, 2006-04-13 07:23 pm UTC

[info]paulbee
2006-04-13 03:45 am UTC (link)
I get an obscene kick out of research, so your question inspired me to do a little working. I dug up some articles. I've skimmed everything I mention below, so they struck me as having some possible relevance for you, although they don't necessarily approach your subject directly. Worth a look if you've got access to a college library for the journals.


There seems to have been a lot of work done on sports fans and aggression. The following article seems as if it might touch somewhat on the subject you're looking for.

Wann, Daniel L. et al. "The Effects of Team Identification and Game Outcome on Willingness to Consider Anonymous Acts of Hostile Aggression." Journal of Sport Behavior 28.3 (Sept. 2005), pp. 282-294.


This article looks at the fan-celebrity relationship, although it seems basically focused on non-violent interactions and looks at violence only considered as in opposition to this sort of interaction. Still might have something theoretically useful.

Ferris, Kerry O. "Through a Glass, Darkly: The Dynamics of Fan-Celebrity Encounters." Symbolic Interaction 24.1 (2001), pp. 25-47.


This one tries a solidly numerical approach to celebrity obsession. A little bit of discussion about what's going on, though overall it doesn't offer too much in terms of particular theory.

McCutcheon, Lynn E., Rense Lange, and James Houran. "Conceptualization and Measurement of Celebrity Worship." British Journal of Psychology 93.1 (2002), pp. 67-87.


There's also some discussion and a potentially useful bibliography in the following two:

Schlesinger, Louis B. "Celebrity Stalking, Homicide, and Suicide: A Psychological Autopsy." International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology 50.1 (2006), 39-46.

Scardaville, Melissa C. "Accidental Activists: Fan Activism in the Soap Opera Community." American Behavioral Scientist 48.7 (2005), pp. 881-901.


Hope you might find a thing or two there. Certainly some interesting thoughts for me, though psych reading isn't really my thing (hence the skimming). Fun way to kill some time at any rate.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]karentraviss
2006-04-13 08:07 am UTC (link)
As my benificent boss Mr. Vader (sir) would say: "Impressive....most impressive."

Thank you! And thank you for spending the time doing this. I really appreciate it.

One day, talifandom will be a recognised disease, and I want it named after me. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]cherylmorgan
2006-04-13 05:14 am UTC (link)
Something I have noticed about fans is a tendency to live in a binary universe. They like things to be either right or wrong (or perhaps "right" or "WRONG!!!"), not somewhere in between. You see this in a mild form in places like SMOFs where someone who says, "well, it depends", gets shot at from both sides. And you see it in a much more extreme form in flame wars where the enemy tends to get described as "worse that Hitler", or some similar invocation of Gresham's Law.

Of course this is by no means unique to fans. The real world equivalent is "you are either with us or against us", a line that Karl Rove has been using to great effect over the past few years. And of course religious organizations of various stripes have been using it for centuries. "You are either with us or an agent of the Evil One." So I guess this behavior is a basic human tendency, though perhaps fan groups tend to attract people who are susceptible because they provide a group to side with.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]karentraviss
2006-04-13 08:12 am UTC (link)
Absolutely, mate. Amen.

The interesting thing for me is that while I can see EXACTLY what a political slime-mold gets out of ideology ($$$$$$$$ power $$$$$$$) the motivation for a fan is much more troubled, I think.

Remember that I said here ince that the nastiest, dirtiest politics I'd ever seen was in the voluntary sector in the UK (charities, the unpaid end) - far worse than local government, and even national government.

Money wasn't the game. It also gave them no real power. In LG and national gov, there are real concrete things to fight for and grab, if you're that way inclined. The unpaid politicos ...when they were toxic, they were the worst I've seen. They wanted to exercise some utterly meaningless power.

Sick stuff.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cherylmorgan, 2006-04-13 03:40 pm UTC

[info]llygoden
2006-04-13 09:22 am UTC (link)
I've believed for a long time that there is a "fanaticism gene", ie some basic makeup of some people's personality that makes them susceptible to fanatical behaviour. What the person actually becomes fanatical about depends solely on their environment and it can be totally trivial or of world shattering importance.

Anyone who's had any involvement in any kind of sport or hobby soon learns to spot the real fanatics. The main difference now is that due to the Internet, they're much more visible to people outside the hobby/sport/fandom. Also, if you think of the numbers involved now things are global and add to that the speed of response email and the Web brings, it's no wonder that things escalate much more quickly. There could also be an element of "playing to the crowd" because on the Web one is aware that one's words are being read by many more than the people who actually respond directly.

In the days when one had to get pen and paper or pound out one's reply on a typewriter, find envelope and stamp, take the letter to the postbox and then wait several weeks for next issue of the association's monthly journal to come out and then another several weeks before The Enemy could have their say back, it took real dedication to keep an argument going, though they did indeed rumble on for years in some cases.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 09:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]llygoden, 2006-04-13 10:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 10:22 am UTC

[info]jamesgilmer
2006-04-13 06:11 am UTC (link)
All disagreements should be handled in what I call "British Pub" manner.

Five minutes of yelling and calling each other c***s and four hours of heavy drinking ending with "You're a f***ing c***, but I love you!".

This may just be the social pattern among the V though.

(Reply to this)


[info]fjm
2006-04-13 07:30 am UTC (link)
OK

This is me sticking my neck out but what the hell?

I think a specific type of text attracts this kind of reaction. I don't want this to be read as a comment on "good" or "bad" texts although it's no secret that I wasn't impressed by the Potter books and haven't bought book 6.

The kind of text that attracts this reaction is one in which the protagonists function less as characters than as avatars. This is actually pretty common in sf and fantasy but you also find it in thrillers (Bond is a classic example). The purpose of these avatars is for them to be sufficiently neutral that a reader can don them, and *be* that character moving through the text. I have no stance on whether this is good or bad. I can't work with the Harry Potter avatar personally, but I do just fine with Lois McMaster Bujold's Miles Vorkosigan.

But what this does is to give the reader a feeling of control over the action, and a sense of *ownership*. (one reason soaps have so many characters is to give "readers" a choice of avatar--sort of the original multi-user domain?). In a lot of teenage fiction at the moment, you'll find four or five characters who each take turns to narrate the action. They all have attributes and the idea is that a reader will identify with at least one of them (I'm currently reading The Big Empty by J.B. Stephens, a YA series which does some subversive things with this).

But if you do this, then there is the issue that the inhabitant of the avatar is going to start planning the moves (hence fan fiction) and is going to get pretty pissed if the character deviates (Stephen King’s novel, Misery, is precisely about this). And if you’ve been identifying with that character for five years……

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]karentraviss
2006-04-13 08:15 am UTC (link)
Well, I'd have thought better of you, mate, and I accept that you're a qualified critic, and that you understand YA fiction better than anyone I know. But...

Every writer who has any profile gets them. The bigger the sales, the bigger the pool of pond life.

So...personalising this....is that what you think of my books? Of Mercedes Lackey's? Of Kevin Anderson's?



(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]fjm, 2006-04-13 09:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 09:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 09:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]elarasophia, 2006-04-13 10:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 11:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lonedingo, 2006-04-19 02:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-19 02:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]llygoden, 2006-04-13 09:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 09:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cherylmorgan, 2006-04-13 03:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 04:10 pm UTC

[info]jamesgilmer
2006-04-13 04:03 pm UTC (link)
The kind of text that attracts this reaction is one in which the protagonists function less as characters than as avatars>>

I don't really think that follows, as people clearly relate to a wide-variaty of characters and the way you've worded it puts a highly subjective "If the readers related to the character, the writer hasn't written them as full characters" spin on it.

Simply not true. While the concept of the "Everyman" hero is widespread and the idea is designed to allow people to imagine themselves in that role, it doesn't follow because so many people are able to identify with people they have nothing in common with.

Identification with protags are pretty much required for a person to attach to a book, but that doesn't limit the protag or mean the author hasn't made them a fully realized person.

Also, as society has grown and built into a multiplex society seeking entertainment, those who seek heroes or protags to identify with have changed. The concept of a "universal" Everyman hero has changed and with growing diversity the Everyman is no longer a square-jawed white male, and audiences are much more accepting of a wide range of protags to view the story through.

I don't think that diminishes the writing in any way, but celebrates how far we've come that stories don't have to be told from the view of the straight white male anymore.

For some, overidentifying with a character who is radically different than they are may indicate a wish to live in a fictional reality or change something about themselves, but I don't think it's a fault of the writer or book.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]fjm, 2006-04-13 07:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 07:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-13 11:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fjm, 2006-04-14 07:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-14 01:04 pm UTC

[info]mevennen
2006-04-13 08:29 am UTC (link)
I'd recommend a book (can't remember the author) called SHOOT THE WOMEN FIRST, which is a series of interviews with women who get involved in terrorist movements. The only one who really comes across as a psycho is Leila Khaled.

(Reply to this)


[info]karenmiller
2006-04-13 08:58 am UTC (link)
Scratch a fandom, find a fucktard. Really. No matter where you go. For nasty rabidness you can't beat elements of the online Stargate crowd. Walk softly, carry a loaded Uzi. Seriously.

When in my tie in I dare to support the canon that is the attraction between Jack and Sam ... watch me get shredded. *g*

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 09:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karenmiller, 2006-04-13 09:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 10:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karenmiller, 2006-04-13 10:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 10:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karenmiller, 2006-04-13 10:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 10:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karenmiller, 2006-04-13 10:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wookieegunner, 2006-04-13 04:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karenmiller, 2006-04-13 10:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-13 04:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karenmiller, 2006-04-13 10:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 07:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karenmiller, 2006-04-13 10:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 11:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karenmiller, 2006-04-14 04:15 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 10:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jmswallow, 2006-04-13 10:27 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 04:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jmswallow, 2006-04-13 05:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karenmiller, 2006-04-14 04:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 09:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karenmiller, 2006-04-14 02:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 02:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karenmiller, 2006-04-14 11:29 pm UTC

[info]wookieegunner
2006-04-13 04:12 pm UTC (link)
A game my friends and I play is to "name" characters in movies based upon the person that character reminds them of. For example they might say "Oh, that is so Donald" and from henceforth out that I have been "given" that character, generally because when we watched that movie the first thing out of people's mouths is "Donald would so do that".

I can easily see how when a person "names" a character as their own they could react badly when the character does something that they wouldn't do. For example, I can think of several people who are loving fathers who would do anything for their children, much the way Skirata is in Triple Zero. Now how would this loving father who sees his children the way he expects Kal to see the Null react when he finds out that Kal tortured the Nulls. Sure it makes since for him to do it, but how would you react if you were to look at the child you love more than life itself and think about someone with the same link torturing the person they loved?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 04:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wookieegunner, 2006-04-13 04:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 04:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 04:49 pm UTC

[info]wookieegunner
2006-04-13 04:20 pm UTC (link)
BTW, I think one part of this you are forgetting is my Fist/Face Syndrome concept. Did I ever tell you about that?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 04:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wookieegunner, 2006-04-13 08:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-13 08:41 pm UTC

[info]joysweeper
2006-04-13 11:09 pm UTC (link)
Two Mercedes Lackey mentions in a Karen Traviss blog post?

Oooooh.

Traviss, I love you like I've loved only two or three other authors since I was five... but Lackey's books stole my soul long before I picked up Hard Contact.

*cough*

Anyway...

I think it could be partly because this is the Internet. You don't have to be accountable for your actions over it, so you tend to overexaggerate your opinions.

Some of these opinions are so strong that you get fixated and have trouble telling your ideas from an author's ideas, particularly if some of the author's ideas "agree" with you.

So when the author blithely goes on about their own way, you get confused and basically end up thinking that they are rejecting you. Dismissing you. And that hurts.

I'm not saying that this excuses what some fans say and do- not at all- I'm just trying to make sense of the senseless.

Does that make sense to anyone?

At any rate, people enjoy choosing a side and telling themselves that their side is superior. Perhaps a *bit* too much. At some point "the enemy" is somehow seen as threatening, and this is the Internet, so they can't tell if you're bluffing to scare them or you actually have the Rightness that you project.

Or something.

People see what they want to see. Here, or anywhere else. If they want to see stuff leading to a fight, well, they do. And it's the Internet. Character assassination is seen as harmless...

I think I completely lost the point I had somewhere here... ah well, gone is gone.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 02:39 pm UTC

[info]cpt_kraut
2006-04-14 02:54 pm UTC (link)
And having gone down the conventional track that folks who threaten to kill authors for whacking a favourite character or getting into really unpleasant fights over the length of an SSD (or clone numbers...) must all share the same abnormal psychology...

Being part of the so-called "techie"-faction of SW fans (we do love the rest of the fictional universe, as well, in case you were wondering), I find this "Talifan"-belief amongst some fans (and apparently some authors) quite distasteful.

If anything, I've only encountered hostility and relentless ridicule from people who don't like numbers in SW (and who, by any reasonable measure, shouldn't have to engage in these discussions if they don't like them, in the first place), as well as a nigh-fundamentalist mindset of "the smaller, the better".

Some of their beliefs spring out from the desire to have just about every single source ever published in SW EU, be part of continuity. To this end, they are willing to accept just about every ludicrous notion put forth, as long as it doesn't contradict previous sources. Since you mentioned the long-standing, and now resolved, SSD-debate as an example, there are still certain individuals insisting on treating the redefinition of SSD, as some sort of "continuity-error", and they will lambast and whine whenever someone points out why that isn't so.

I've also never heard of anyone on "my side" post death-threats. Whine and swear maybe, but that's about it, afaik.

It's easy to take up a position of moral highground when you already have a sizable portion of fans, several published novels and articles, and the support of at least some individuals in Lucas Licensing.
Adding to that a degrading pet-name for possible detractors like "Talifan" or "Internet Madrasah High-Schoolers" or whatever you want to call it, and you've got relatively little to complain about compared to the other side of the debate. (If you did actually recieve death-threats in any way, then that is of course disgusting and as moronic as it can possibly get!)

Other than that, I've only got this to add, alot of grief and bad debates could have been avoided early on simply by giving a non-specific number to the Clone Army, like "countless millions of divisions". A nice, vague statement that both satisfies people who like big numbers in an outlandish universe like SW, and those who like the fantasy-aspects more. :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 03:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 03:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 05:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 05:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 05:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 06:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 06:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 06:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 07:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 07:12 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 07:20 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 07:32 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 07:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]enderwastaken, 2006-04-14 05:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 05:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-14 05:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 06:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 05:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-14 05:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]enderwastaken, 2006-04-14 06:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-14 06:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 06:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-14 06:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 06:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-14 06:59 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 07:12 pm UTC
... - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-14 07:14 pm UTC
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... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 08:19 pm UTC
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... - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-15 05:03 am UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 09:27 am UTC
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... - [info]enderwastaken, 2006-04-15 12:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]enderwastaken, 2006-04-15 12:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 12:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-15 05:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 07:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 07:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 08:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 08:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 08:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 08:46 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 08:54 pm UTC
... - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-14 11:44 pm UTC
... - [info]enderwastaken, 2006-04-15 12:07 am UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 12:15 am UTC
... - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-15 04:28 am UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 12:20 am UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 10:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]enderwastaken, 2006-04-15 12:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 12:16 am UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 10:49 am UTC
... - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-15 12:53 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 01:05 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 01:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]enderwastaken, 2006-04-15 12:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 12:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]enderwastaken, 2006-04-15 12:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 12:52 am UTC
... - [info]enderwastaken, 2006-04-15 01:22 am UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 01:35 am UTC
... - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-15 01:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-15 01:53 am UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 01:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-15 01:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jedi_haiku, 2006-04-15 04:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 04:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-15 05:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 08:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 11:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-15 11:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 11:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-15 12:07 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 12:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jedi_haiku, 2006-04-17 04:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-17 04:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jedi_haiku, 2006-04-17 04:17 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-17 04:20 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 04:30 pm UTC
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... - [info]jedi_haiku, 2006-04-17 05:22 pm UTC
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... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 05:41 pm UTC
... - [info]jedi_haiku, 2006-04-17 06:04 pm UTC
... - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-17 06:49 pm UTC
... - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-17 11:18 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-17 11:32 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 05:29 pm UTC
... - [info]jedi_haiku, 2006-04-17 05:30 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-17 05:33 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 05:34 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-17 05:41 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 06:48 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-17 07:00 pm UTC
... - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-17 07:11 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-17 07:22 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-17 08:34 pm UTC
... - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-17 07:09 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-17 07:18 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 07:34 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-17 08:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 05:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-14 05:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 06:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-14 06:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 06:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 06:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 07:41 pm UTC
Whoops, I meant: - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 05:25 pm UTC
Re: Whoops, I meant: - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 06:04 pm UTC
Re: Whoops, I meant: - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 06:12 pm UTC
Re: Whoops, I meant: - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 06:20 pm UTC
Re: Whoops, I meant: - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 07:43 pm UTC
Re: Whoops, I meant: - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 08:38 pm UTC
Re: Whoops, I meant: - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 08:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 05:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 05:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 06:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 06:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 06:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 06:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 07:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 07:38 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 08:27 pm UTC
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... - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-14 10:32 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 11:13 pm UTC
... - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-14 11:40 pm UTC
... - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-14 11:54 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 09:16 am UTC
... - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-15 02:17 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 02:29 pm UTC
... - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-15 02:30 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 02:36 pm UTC
... - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-15 02:41 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 02:45 pm UTC
... - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-15 03:09 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 03:20 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 02:41 pm UTC
... - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-15 02:48 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 02:48 pm UTC
... - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-15 02:53 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 03:07 pm UTC
... - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-15 03:19 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 03:34 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 03:42 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 03:43 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 03:48 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 03:07 pm UTC
... - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-15 04:51 am UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 09:21 am UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 09:24 am UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 11:02 am UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 11:40 am UTC
... - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-15 11:54 am UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 12:10 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 12:10 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 12:22 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 12:29 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 12:44 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 12:48 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 12:58 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 01:02 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 01:07 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 01:20 pm UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 01:28 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 01:31 pm UTC
Re: Get off my fandom, please - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 04:06 pm UTC
Get off my fandom, please
[info]thedarkmoose
2006-04-14 03:46 pm UTC (link)
“Other than that, I've only got this to add, alot of grief and bad debates could have been avoided early on simply by giving a non-specific number to the Clone Army, like "countless millions of divisions". A nice, vague statement that both satisfies people who like big numbers in an outlandish universe like SW, and those who like the fantasy-aspects more. :)”


That's what cracks me up - people still think the number came from Karen.

So it's ok to personally attack an author who's given a challenge and works the problem, because of a perceived discrepancy, one that can't even find its origins with Ms. Traviss.

But it's not ok to characterize those that personally attack with a term that I'm pretty sure Karen didn't even invent.

That places not only Karen Traviss, but every single author that is either so brave or so mis-guided as to write for an audience that produces such a reaction in a completely untenable position.

Frankly, I don't know why authors write for Star Wars so long as fans can't separate the ideas of criticism and insult.

I likewise don't understand why the remainder of fandom tolerates these elements in our ranks.

I furthermore don't understand why fandom has departed the realm of entertainment and made brave new forrays into pedantic over-analysis and frustrated literalism, so much so they forgo the use of their own imaginations as to ask to be spoonfed answers that agree with preconveived notions.

I mean - where do these fans get their enjoyment? They buy, read, they convulse. It's mind-boggling.

There's something I simply can't abide by in criticism, and that's the portrayal of faux authority and expertise. It's one thing to say "I didn't like this book because I couldn't get past these logical problems" and quite another to say "Clearly the author doesn't take the time to do proper research" or "The lack of professional concern is staggering". It means that not once does the reader hold up the possibility that perhaps there's a detail they've missed, something they don't understand.

It also gives the impression that "there's a right way, and a wrong way", and the one giving the criticism absolutely knows, by practice, the right way.

And I defy the vast majority of those that offer this sort of personal vitriol to produce a single scrap of personal credential. A book written, published. A screenplay. A movie.

To which invariably they answer, after the uncomfortable silence "What, I'm not allowed to offer criticism"? No, you're not - not when you're while masqerading as an authority on the subject. Not when you can't concede that it's just as possible the reader didn't get the point rather than the author not providing it. And certainly not when what you're going after is the person, not the work.

In the long-standing relationship between patron and artist, there are certain things we all used to understand, but somehow lost in the popularization of rude critics in mass-media - it is possible for something to simply not appeal to taste. It doesn't reach you on an intellectual level. But their experience with it is not all-encompassing, not necessarily shared, not authoritative, and therefore doesn't give them the right, nor the remote ability, to tell other people how wrong it is to enjoy something.

It's not that they disagree with how a piece of work goes, they somehow become offended by it, as if the artist defied their will knowingly, and openly flaunted their desire to go against some "norm".

It is the essence of a closed mind, bereft of imagination, and disproportionately intolerant of alternatives.

It's goofy, and counterproductive, and speaks of issues not limited simply to misunderstanding. As a fan, these people anger me, because they exist to exploit our collective ability to interact with these artists for their own agenda, and in doing so, one by one, drive them away. A very few terminally disatisfied patrons make unilateral decisions for the rest of it.

And I personally don't feel disposed to to tolerate the incursion into my fandom. But that's just me. Don't know how others feel, but I can guess.

DM out

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Get off my fandom, please - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-14 04:09 pm UTC
Re: Get off my fandom, please - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 04:10 pm UTC
Re: Get off my fandom, please - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-14 04:40 pm UTC
Re: Get off my fandom, please - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 05:16 pm UTC
Re: Get off my fandom, please - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 06:01 pm UTC
Re: Get off my fandom, please - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 06:37 pm UTC
Re: Get off my fandom, please - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-14 06:56 pm UTC
Re: Get off my fandom, please - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-14 07:04 pm UTC

[info]jamesgilmer
2006-04-14 06:39 pm UTC (link)
Anyone find it insteresting that cpt kraut has problems with the numbers, yet is able to say he just makes up his mind in his head about what's what and enjoys it, and Karen seems to be getting along quite well with him, despite him outright stating that he thinks the numbers are wrong but doing so in a polite way.

Constrated with another poster who is being passive-aggresive right off the bat and claiming that she hasn't done her research, ignored her fellow author's work, ignored the work of her partner and friend, has lied to fandom, and so on, and that person is surprised that Karen might be a little...less than gracious to them?

Anyone notice a difference?

Because one of these things is not like the other...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-14 06:42 pm UTC
Talifans?
[info]neocapitalist
2006-04-15 01:33 am UTC (link)
Ms Traviss -- I'm a bit of a newcomer to this debate, and I'm simply curious: who, exactly, are you labeling "Talifans"? Is the group well defined? Can you give me a list of members? Or leaders? Or do the "Talifans" lack any coherent leadership?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Talifans? - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 01:38 am UTC

[info]karentraviss
2006-04-15 09:41 am UTC (link)
(Apologies for re-entering this...the thread structure is getting very messy now.)

Memory is a wonderful thing, and Google desktop is even better.

See, when someone responds to a TOS blog, the author gets an automatic e-mail of it. Last year, before he was banned and his post deleted, I got this from a person with the SN of....enderwastaken:

"Such as comparing those who disagree with you to the spanish inquisition and terrorists and being proud of it? Such as claiming that people disagree with you because you are a woman, and not because they may see an actual logical flaw in your work?"

It would have appeared in this blog had the mods not spotted and deleted even before I had chance to respond in a cheery Pompey Girl manner:

http://blogs.starwars.com/karentraviss/32/comments

Dunno about you, but I reckon the name and the style look...the same.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 11:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-15 11:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 12:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-15 12:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 12:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-15 12:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-15 12:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-15 01:00 pm UTC

[info]jedi_wampa
2006-04-16 09:57 am UTC (link)
Has anyone here seen the movie "Big Trouble," with Tim Allen, written by Dave Barry? There's a running gag where every time this guy turns on the radio, it's two guys arguing the same point over and over, hour after hour.

What's my point?

Ok, I'm a little late coming into this discussion, but I just recently stumbled onto one of the message forums talking about the "Great Clone Number Controversy" that, frankly, I didn't really even know was going on. I disagree with the arguments, I think several of them are just dumb, to be kind. But here's what REALLY got me...

It's the same arguments. Over. and over. and over. Ad infinitum, ad nauseum. A dozen or more pages in one thread of the same things, the same people, and the same quotes. Does this fall into the "if I say it loud enough and often enough it will become true" mentality?

Again, I'm sorry that's I'm so late coming into this. I'm not trying to "fire up the guns" and get everyone back into the same old arguments. I just can't believe the arguments are so weak. If I wanted to promote my thoughts, I'd back it up with more than one point.

Ok, sorry, all done now....

Going to bed....


(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-16 12:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-16 02:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-16 03:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-16 04:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-16 05:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-16 05:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-16 03:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-16 05:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-16 07:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-16 08:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-16 08:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-16 09:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-16 11:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]razzy1319, 2006-04-17 01:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 08:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-17 09:42 am UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 09:44 am UTC
... - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-17 09:54 am UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 10:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 09:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-17 04:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-17 07:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 09:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-17 09:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 09:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-17 09:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 09:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-17 11:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 12:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karentraviss, 2006-04-17 12:48 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 12:56 pm UTC
... - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-17 02:16 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 02:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-17 02:07 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 02:31 pm UTC
... - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-17 03:06 pm UTC
... - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-17 03:24 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 04:08 pm UTC
... - [info]thedarkmoose, 2006-04-17 06:50 pm UTC
... - [info]cpt_kraut, 2006-04-17 07:36 pm UTC
... - [info]jamesgilmer, 2006-04-17 11:31 pm UTC


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