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 | Special forces |
I'm always interested in the questions people don't ask me. Nobody asked me what a Null ARC was when Targets was published - and I thought I'd be swamped with by one. Now that the Guide to the Grand Army (penned by me and Ryan Kaufman) is out in Insider, again I'm fascinated by what people haven't asked.
Okay, I'll ask the question myself, then. Where are the officers?
In the regular GAR, the clone commander structure fills most of that role. It's a numbers game. They have to.
But there are no clone commanders for Republic commandos. Each commando group in the SO Brigade (a group is five companies, or 500 men) has a Jedi commander in the form of a junior General. The special operations brigade has ten such commando groups, and there's a brigade commanding officer, a senior Jedi general (Camas, later Zey), running the whole shebang at HQ . So that's eleven Jedi commanding 5000 men.
Compare this with the real-world structure of the Royal Marines, where the officer ratio is roughly 1: 10. If you tried to apply that to the GAR SO Bde, you'd need 500 Jedi, which - in the words of the poem* - in our case we have not got. So the lads have to run their own show.
Fortunately, the RCs are a self-directing and resourceful bunch, as are the Null ARCs. More on how they manage to operate with such a minimal officer structure in Triple Zero.
I love retcon. In its convoluted depths lie the meat of stories.
* Today We Have Naming Of Parts, by Henry Reed.
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http://blogs.starwars.com/karentraviss/27 |
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Darth Kore
Somewhere Far Far away...
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 2:17 PM
WOW. cool. You always know your stories.
in our case we have not got.
what poem is this from, if you don't mind me asking?
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The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 2:29 PM
I've always thought one of the most elegant aspects of having a cloned army is that you would not need a dense chain of command rich in officers. Soldiers that obey nearly everything without question would not be so unruly even in larger sections assigned to a fewer number of commanders.
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 2:41 PM
you would not need a dense chain of command rich in officers. Soldiers that obey nearly everything without question would not be so unruly even in larger sections assigned to a fewer number of commanders.
Er...I don't think that's the main function of officers, actually...
Officers plan and liaise and lead. The hands-on discipline falls largely to NCOs. Compliance with orders - which is pretty high even in our own armed forces - isn't the issue here. It's the tactical and operational command levels that are missing.
The GAR special forces could be an example of "long screwdriver", if you're familiar with that term. But that's not how I have them working in Triple Zero.
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The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 2:43 PM
Ah - I see what you mean - I typed a reply but you were busy answering my question, though not fully formed yet. But would you say that, because of the nature of a cloned army, it makes them more..."remote control"? Something akin to the "long screwdriver" you mention? Or is that something more attributed to training than cloning?
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 2:53 PM
Cloning doesn't make compliance - it's much more from training. Genetics predisposes, but it doesn't make anywhere near the difference that training does. The really critical thing - if we stick with the real world analysis - is that the clone lads were trained from early childhood. That makes a huge difference. (The training aspect is in the GGAR feature, in fact.)
(contd due to word limit...)
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 2:54 PM
contd...
The "long screwdriver" is the concept of allowing strategic commanders to reach operational levels and, effectively, make direct command decisions at that level. (Which, as you might imagine, is not without its problems, regardless of how many assurances are given that this doesn't mean bypassing tactical/ operational commanders). This is tied up with what's known as "network-enabled capability".
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The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:00 PM
Cool - thanks for setting me straight - it helps me to understand the functions of the different levels first to appreciate the necessity of being either "hands on" or detached as far as commanding these forces are concerned. One more question - in your opinion, with the sudden .."demotion" of the Jedi generals, where did these officers come from in the months following Order 66? They seemed to have stepped in from the shadows. I know that might be a little outside of the scope of the novels, perhaps, but I was just wondering what you thought.
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:07 PM
Gosh, this one is going to blow the word limit, so I'll deliver it in chunks...
Interesting thing to bear in mind is how command operates in the real world. (And I'm talking UK here, although I don't think it's that much different in other western countries.) At the head of state level, they just ask for objectives to be met in broad terms: they won't even specify a branch of the service. It'll be, "I want X or Y done." At the top planning levels, they're talking about broad capabilities - air, martime, land - and not whether the army, navy or air force delivers it.
contd
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:13 PM
Re the non-clone officer structure that stepped in, I have to assume it's what was already there pre-Geonosis. There couldn't have been an extensive defence force, or they wouldn't have needed to mobilise the GAR. But with the GAR structured as it was - ideal for "long screwdrivers" - then they didn't need huge numbers anyway. I'm just applying a mix of real-world to what I can glean from continuity.
The art of enjoying SW, both as a reader and a writer, is knowing that even the most authentic treatment has to bow to the fiction side sooner or later.  The juggling required to make the plausibility gel with the fantasy is what I enjoy as a writer.
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The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:29 PM
The art of enjoying SW, both as a reader and a writer, is knowing that even the most authentic treatment has to bow to the fiction side sooner or later.
True dat. It's sometimes hard to reconcile technical aspects to the left with the little green dude floating things around to the right :0) Anyhoo - thanks for the insights. Part of the Star Wars experience is to flesh out the universe in exacting detail. Really, I think it's that part of it that allows you to believe the fantasy so much more.
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Rive Caedo
Rive's Uncharted Settlements
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:32 PM
Hm... I figured as long as we aren't to be questioning the issues of the number of troops itself brought up here.
It wasn't unlikely "The highly independent Republic commandos required almost no direction from Jedi command and were largely self-directing when given broad objectives." was just as reasonable
It's much harder to question the inner workings of the Clone Troopers than "Why does Leia remember her mother?" it seems. Kudos to making things at least "seem" plausible 
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:47 PM
You have to work within continuity. You can explain that to some folks until you're blue in the face, but then they probably wouldn't have anything to debate about...
I just find it fascinting that on one hand, some people can accept what is broadly speaking magic - Jedi powers - and yet get upset about something else only marginally less implausible by real world standards.
(contd due to word limit)
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:47 PM
(contd)
I also find it interesting that nobody's arguing genetic engineering with me. But numbers are easier to relate to, and a lot easier than that pesky relativity stuff, too.
If you want a total real-world treatment, there would be no Star Wars. The reality is in the issues and themes it explores. Which is why even though I'm a hard SF writer in my own series, I can swallow SW whole, and smile.
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The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:51 PM
Personally, I find it funny people will flames others over the length of plastic model ships we saw once 25 years ago, but have no problem with the idea of sound in space. :0) If you don't question one, don't be so concerned about the other. You're just giving yourself a headache.
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 4:02 PM
I'm glad it's not just me, DM. I call it "councillor voting on complex budget syndrome". I'd see politicians rubberstamp complex multi-million pound construction schemes without a word of debate and then spend ten hours arguing over the position of the coffee bar. They focused on what they could best grasp. Physics and behavioural science and manipulation of LMNA genes are hard to get a handle on, but things like numbers (cue the SSD row!) are things that most folks can work out on paper. So they focus on that.
At the end of the day, I switch on the news, and watch real soldiers dying in real wars, and remind myself what real means.
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RogueJedi86
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 4:27 PM
This is why I am in love with you. 
I love your in-depth explanations in your blog comments. You need to find a way to release all your blog comments along with the Mando'a language. Half your great information is in the comments.
Also, at least for me, the reason I didn't question the Null ARC Troopers was I figured it was something that had been explained before and I just hadn't read it(haven't read your book,unfortunately). I didn't wanna get one of those "What are you asking that for,it was in Hard Contact, how can you post in this blog without having read her book?"
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The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 4:29 PM
Again, true dat - not only is it important to know the value of reality, but on the flipside its best not to cheapen our forays into escapism by trying to make them exactly alike :0) I like the ambiguous nature of Star Wars. It tells me its a place where anything can happen.
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 1:20 AM
This is why I am in love with you.
Thank you - I need all the friends I can get at the moment! (As does Ryan. We have been flamed somewhat.)
I hope nobody's ever put off asking questions. I don't mind what folks ask as long as they're prepared to hear the answers. You know why the number of clones will never work out right? Because there are a number of things already floating around that make the two ends of the equation irreconcilable using real world numbers.
(contd)
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 1:21 AM
contd
We know how big Kamino is, we had existing clone numbers, but we also have mega-figures for droids. The two don't mix. But what we did know was that the war would never run its course, and so most of those droids would never see battle. So that's how we took the numbers we had and retconned them the way we did.
(contd due to word limit)
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 1:22 AM
contd
If you took this to its logical conclusion, the numbers of clone soldiers needed would have been many billions. Kamino is about half as big again as Earth (population 6 billion, with lots of land masses) and a waterworld. It has a billion inhabitants. So - and this is where it takes the fun out of it - real science and numbers means that they could never have produced and trained anything like that number of clones, because the infrastructure alone would have been unworkable. In fact, the whole physics and economics of having an advanced industrial world doesn't stack up - using hard facts.
(contd)
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 1:24 AM
contd
And they wouldn't have had the resourcesor infrastructure to create huge training and exercise areas, either. And clones produced by that method wouldn't have been functional enough as human beings to operate on the battlefield. And you can't teach everything by flash training; you need them to do it for real. And...keeping secret the supply of the hardware alone would have been impossible. And...
So...bang goes the whole clone wars thanks to reality. And that's why I get a litle impatient when I get folks flaming me about the numbers. They're being selective. They don't look at the whole equation, which is a lot more complex than dividing droids by clones!
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bonniegrrl
Droids Just Wanna Have Fun
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date Posted: Oct 04, 2005 12:44 PM
Thank you - I need all the friends I can get at the moment! (As does Ryan. We have been flamed somewhat.)
ugh. Let me know where this is happening here and I'll put an end to it. Opinions and debate are one thing, but flaming is a huge no no and it makes me angry like the Hulk.
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