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 | Why maths is a slippery slope in the GFFA |
For those of you who haven't followed yesterday's blog thread, we strayed onto clone numbers. Knowing that some folk just read the main blog entry and don't trawl through the replies because it takes a lot of time, I'm going to repost it in one chunk here. It's about how using real-world logic selectively to argue against something leads you into a sequence that destroys the whole edifice.
So flame me - although you'll have a hard job hitting the target, because I'll shove Ryan Kaufman in the way of the jet, just like Boba showed me...  Plus, I have a nice new Verp...
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Digest of my replies from yesterday:
I hope nobody's ever put off asking questions. I don't mind what folks ask as long as they're prepared to hear the answers. You know why the number of clones will never work out right? Because there are a number of things already floating around that make the two ends of the equation irreconcilable using real world numbers.
We know how big Kamino is, we had existing clone numbers, but we also have mega-figures for droids. The two don't mix. But what we did know was that the war would never run its course, and so most of those droids would never see battle. So that's how we took the numbers we had and retconned them the way we did.
If you took this to its logical conclusion, the numbers of clone soldiers needed would have been many billions. Kamino is about half as big again as Earth (population 6 billion, with lots of land masses) and a waterworld. It has a billion inhabitants. So - and this is where it takes the fun out of it - real science and numbers means that they could never have produced and trained anything like that number of clones, because the infrastructure alone would have been unworkable. In fact, the whole physics and economics of them having an advanced industrial world doesn't stack up - using hard facts.
And they wouldn't have had the resources or infrastructure to create huge training and exercise areas, either. And clones produced by that method wouldn't have been functional enough as human beings to operate on the battlefield. And you can't teach everything by flash training; you need them to do it for real. And...keeping secret the supply of the hardware alone would have been impossible. And...
So...bang goes the whole clone wars thanks to reality. And that's why I get a litle impatient when I get folks flaming me about the numbers. They're being selective. They don't look at the whole equation, which is a lot more complex than dividing droids by clones!
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So there you have it, folks. Whatever figure we opted for would have been wrong in the real world at one end of the equation or the other. Ryan and I settled for middle ground with the numbers we had to work with, and even as someone who's worked in the defence world, I could live with it in context.
Continuity is always going to be full of stuff that doesn't fit to start with, and requires some sleight of hand to cover the seams at a later date. If you want to know how continuity actually works, see this essay from my LJ blog. Continuity is much harder than reality, because there's no...causality.
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http://blogs.starwars.com/karentraviss/28 |
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Nex: The T is Hott!!
"Apology accepted, Captain Needa"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 6:24 AM
While I do get a grip on what you're saying there are ways to rationalize the numbers. We know that the Republic took over many other "cloning worlds" which may or may not have been as good or better at producing clones (particularly with speed). Also, There seemed to be a very high clone/kaminoan ration on Kamino, so they could theoretically have supported billions of clones (this is their buisness after all). Tipoca city (a massive 90km city) had no civilian sectors. The entire city was devoted to the cloning project and there were several other such cities.
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Nex: The T is Hott!!
"Apology accepted, Captain Needa"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 6:24 AM
IMHO, it is far easier to find a way to get the Republic billions and billions of clones (if not  trillions), than it is to attempt to rationalize a minimum of 6,666,667:1 ratios.
(Since I don't want to clutter your blog with comments Ms. Traviss, if you want to reply you may email me if you wish. the address is in my profile  )
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 6:50 AM
Thanks. But that wasn't the point I was making.
The point is that it's all beyond the reality of hard science and technology. All of it. The whole shebang. It's what makes SW mythology and not hard SF.
So it's the cherry-picking of feasability that amuses me. Same with the SSD debate. We could bore you senseless on the rationalsiation process we used and question a lot of the assumptions made, but that, we've found, doesn't achieve anything because people have their views, they enjoy holding them, and they're not going to be shifted on them. Which is fine by me.
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DarthHorsepower
Canons of Honor
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 7:16 AM
I'm glad you keep driving the point that in Star Wars things don't necessarily have to make sense. I really get tired of people who complain about the size of the Clone Army, it takes a lot of the fun out of discussing Clones when people launch into a quibble about the size of the Army. A lot of people just don't seem to get that fiction does not need to make sense according to our laws of physics, economics, culture, etc...
If we can have a nine-century-old green creature can defeat an 80 year old man twice his size in a lightning-fast duel with laser swords; I think we should realise that just about anything can be written into canon in Star Wars and make sense in that universe.
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 7:24 AM
Yes, it's the underlying themes that have to make sense - good and evil, loyalty, revenge, friendship, that kind of thing. The rest is iconic. Okay, I like to make things as real as I can get them, but reality can sometimes kill a story. The real issue for me here as a writer is the moral dilemma of a slave army. That's worth debating.
I've said in interviews that I would never have looked at cloning in my own books. It's an old topic, and there are hard SF pitfalls in it. But because I had to look at it for the first time with Hard Contact, a whole world of ethical argument was opened up for me. Had I stuck to my hard SF, I would have missed the best thing that's ever happened to me.
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Nex: The T is Hott!!
"Apology accepted, Captain Needa"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 8:05 AM
I would just ask, what are the Incredible Cross-Sections, Inside the Worlds, and Visual Dictionaries for? They explain the technology, the cultures, the planets, etc. They treat Star Wars as if it were real. They make it into a reality. It seems that LFL doesn't know where it's going, if one book series is treating it all as if it's real, and trying to rationalize things, and a different author saying; "It's just a metaphor, it doesn't have to make sense in reality."
Can you see my dilemma?
I mean, why create a rank and file system for the Grand Army of the Republic, if it's all just iconic?
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Nex: The T is Hott!!
"Apology accepted, Captain Needa"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 8:07 AM
As for physics, economics and culture; there's nothing extraordinarily exotic about their physics, economics and culture to suggest that our standard wouldn't apply. Sure they've found a way to break the lightspeed barrier, and have insane levels of technology, but their universe appears to operate on the same level of physics as ours.
My point in the blog was, that if you can rationalize something plausibly, why not do it? Why say it's fictional and doesn't matter, if you can make it make sense?
I'm confused as to how making the clone numbers more plausible makes Star Wars "hard Sci-Fi"
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Nex: The T is Hott!!
"Apology accepted, Captain Needa"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 8:07 AM
And as to the SSD stuff. Keeping the size consistent was important to ILM and the moviemakers, why should we disregard their work in favor of something that goes against what they showd us?
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 8:31 AM
I thought you said you weren't going to fill up the thread? This is the other end-stop of the argument - that either all of it is real or none of it is. Some of it is very real: some of it isn''t, like FTL and all the ships with hulls that actually wouldn't stand re-entry. It's a clever mix of the two, and it works.
You probably missed the much earlier post (somewhere) where we explained about numbers and detail we had inherited and had to work with. That's what retconning is about .
I'm not saying none of it matters. I'm saying it isn't crucial enough for people to get upset about it, or for folks to harangue me and Ryan or anyone else about it, which I'm afraid has happened.
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DarthHorsepower
Canons of Honor
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 8:39 AM
If you can rationalize something, feel free to rationalize it if you want. I think that a whole lot of the things in Star Wars can be rationalized. I, like most fans probably do, like to rationalize what I can.
It's when people try to rationalize what cannot be rationalized where you run into problems. There are some things, like the number of Clones and Battle Droids that just doesn't make sense if you look at it in a realistic manner. Instead of complaining to the authors and getting into ridiculous arguments, it's something we just need to accept as one of the liberties of fiction.
(cont. in next post)
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DarthHorsepower
Canons of Honor
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 8:40 AM
(cont.)
And fans do need to remember that Star Wars is just fiction. It can be treated as if it's real at times, but at the end fans are supposed to be having fun with it all. To sum my point up: we need to be enjoying Star Wars, not arguing over details that are truly insignificant in the big picture.
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 8:56 AM
Indeed, because otherwise it drives you nuts. I wrote that long essay on continuity to explain how it happens and why these things crop up. People write stuff years apart and then someone else finds they have to tie two bits together years down the line. Of course it isn't going to fit together perfectly every time. Only real events with causality can guarantee that. And some options are unavaiable simply because something was written that now doesn't fit with what you want to do. You work around it and with it. It actually develops the story, I find.
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The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 9:24 AM
You know, I'm going to go into reverse - I typed several long replies to this, but rather than take up your blogspace (which is highly impolite of me, my bad) I'll just stick it into my own blog entry and link to it here. So if you get a messa replies that are deleted, that's me being a fractious child :0) Plus, the more I typed, the more I realized my reply wasn't to your blog, it was about fans being lazy with their imaginations.
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 9:25 AM
Behold retcon at work. If you want to balance quadrillions ( that's a lot of zeros, regardless of which version of the number you use) you need many billions. But do you need to? Most droids probably never get deployed in those three years. Millions never leave the factory. The war is not fought on every planet every day. Strategic targeting can reduce the odds. And the war comes to a rapid end, not by military means, but by political trickery. Had it gone on for decades, who knows when the sheer numbers of droids might have paid off?
(contd)
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 9:26 AM
(contd)
And that's retcon. That's how a few million can hold out for a few years. And that's why Ryan and I had no issue with it - because this is only up to the end of 3 ABG. It's a snapshot of the GAR in that period only. So what we've written doesn't stop another writer creating something for the Imperial era . We haven't specified a maximum number or any other detail.
Now does everyone get our point? Read In His Image and the sequel to see why you have to leave continuity doors open...
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Ackbar is Back
The Admiral's Holoprojector
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 9:36 AM
If I may ask, does this view that none of Star Wars has to be "realistic" simply because there are some elements in it that aren't carry over into your writing for it? I've read Hard Contact, and I must say, it is one of my favorite EU novels. Despite the incredible feats that the main characters pulled off, I could believe it, simply because the reason why was clearly explained in the beginning of the book. The RCs are specially trained, specially equipped special forces soldiers. I can buy that easily.
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Ackbar is Back
The Admiral's Holoprojector
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 9:36 AM
Considering that you have already established yourself as an author who can write realistically even in the SW verse, I wonder, wouldn't it be compromising your authorial integrity if you were to write something about a single badly wounded Clone Trooper destroying 4,000 battle droids in the open field, with the only rationalization being that he had a slightly better gun than his opponents?
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Ackbar is Back
The Admiral's Holoprojector
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 9:36 AM
Or have a normal, un-augemented man fall three hundred feet and get up unscathed, with the rationalization being "Good thing we invented FTL so that the laws of gravity and momentum no longer apply. Its all a fantasy after all."
Is that something you really want in one of your novels? Because that's what your trying to impose on the EU and Star Wars universe as a whole.
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 9:46 AM
I'm not trying to impose anything. I'm working with what I have to work with.
Nor did I ever say that none of it has to be realistic. Where did you get that from? I said that some things weren't, and I could accept that and live with it. (Forgive me, but your tone did come across as a little hostile in cold print. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.)
If I ever find myself having to explain how one man takes on 4,000, I'll come up with the best explanation for it that I can. That's my job.
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The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 10:09 AM
DM, they were really great points, too! I just read them on e-mail.
* pouts *
LOL - sorry - the more I typed the more I realized "Dear God, I'm ranting!", and I just couldn't bring myself to use up 7 or so of your blog entry replies with my rambling, so I made an entry here to reference this one. Of course, you can copy and paste points here, or just reply to mine. Any way, I really like your blog entry here because it illustrates a great point, the aforementioned "Syndrome" you mentioned. :0)
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The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 10:25 AM
No, actually your points made absolute sense. They were, in a logical world, completely sound. There is no way, with the information we've been given at least, that Kamino could support the needs of the GAR - which is a great point, which is even better when seen in support of your larger point. It's exactly what drove me to temporary madness. :0)
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janlomona
Smugglers Rants
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 10:28 AM
Karen, listen (and I am on ytour side on this one), you don't need to explain anything because...
IT'S FICTION!
Blimey, if a green midget can levitate an X-Wing from a swamp using the power of his mind, if a battle station the size of a small moon can destroy an entire world, if wardrobe can manage to hide Carrie Fishers ample upholstery, then I am sure that neither you, me George Lucas or the Inland Revenue need to work out a mathematical equation for how many clones Kamino produced.
Can someone tell me when Star Wars stopped being a Space Fantasy and became Science Fiction (like Star Trek, where I would rightfuly expect this kind of conversation)
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 10:39 AM
Don't get me started on Trek! FTL! Time dilation! Two weeks on the holiday planet of Zog a zillion light years away, and they come back from leave and two weeks have elapsed!
Nurse! The screens! Get my medication!
Actually, I don't even mind Trek doing it. Hellfire and hut'uune chaps, even my beloved Babylon 5 did it. And it's okay. It's not GCSE Physics.
If I want absolute hard SF and logistics, I do that in my own City of Pearl series. I knew the ground rules when I signed on the line here. And you know what? Exploring the highly improbable bits of SWdom has made me grow as a writer more than all my own serious stuff laid end to end. Because it made me look at emotions a lot more.
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The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 10:45 AM
Well, I can't speak for her, but I think what's great about the point is the realization that not everything has an explanation on the author's side of the pen. I believe some things are best worked out in the reader's mind, not just the author's. Otherwise, what was once an interesting book about a band of resourceful, courageous clone brothers in combat becomes an essay on how slot A goes into slot B and turns just thusly. Which these books, of course, are not...damnit ..now I've said it. I have to go buy Hard Contact - I haven't had a chance to read it yet and I've just made a claim without firsthand knowledge :0) But somehow I don't think I'll be disappointed.
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 10:58 AM
The very first thing I ever posted as a SW author was that I was making Hard Contact as authentic as I could within the context of SW.
Because the whole operation would have been a paragraph in real life. You know...SAS lads spending months on observation, recce and planning, and then the saucy fellows go in and the next thing you see is a smoking pile of debris. The End.
Trouble is, Del Rey won't pay you novel rates for a paragraph...and readers won't buy it either.
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Ackbar is Back
The Admiral's Holoprojector
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 11:02 AM
I'm not trying to impose anything.
But you are setting precedent. If all EU authors simply don't try to rationalize things that are difficult to rationalize, we get a universe who's level of coherence is one step above Star Trek's (by the way Karen, hyperdrives use time dialation devices too. )
I'm working with what I have to work with.
You must be at least aware of the works or Curtis Saxton. He is given the same material as you are, but the elements of the SW universe he depicts and clarifies are rationalized and quantified, quite believably IMO.
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Ackbar is Back
The Admiral's Holoprojector
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 11:02 AM
Nor did I ever say that none of it has to be realistic. Where did you get that from? I said that some things weren't, and I could accept that and live with it.
I misspoke, I apologize. The point I'm trying to convey is that, while I can understand if things like the workings of the force and FTL are difficult to quantify and changable, I cannot accept that something that should be just as real as the effect of a 300 foot drop on a man (like the virtually indefeatable numerical superiority the CIS would have verus the GAR with 3 million troops.) Retecons and the nebulous nature of "fantasy" aside, somethings, like logic and common sense, should not be disregarded.
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Ackbar is Back
The Admiral's Holoprojector
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 11:03 AM
If I ever find myself having to explain how one man takes on 4,000, I'll come up with the best explanation for it that I can. That's my job.
And, if you will forgive me for saying, it is my job, and that of any fan, to analyze and question your work. It's a sign we care.
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 11:03 AM
band of resourceful, courageous clone brothers in combat becomes an essay on how slot A goes into slot B and turns just thusly
Well, there's a lot of slotting in Triple Zero. Does that count?
I've got enough tech detail in there to give folks an idea of what it's like to do certain jobs in the military and what goes through soldiers' minds. That's what I'm really going for. My military readers don't have a problem with it.
I've realised that I've not included Ryan in this for a few posts. So whatever I've said about the Insider GGAR feature goes for him too. He co-authored it and I don't want to look as if I'm airbrushing him out of the picture.
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The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 11:04 AM
but the elements of the SW universe he depicts and clarifies are rationalized and quantified, quite believably IMO.
That leaves me with little to do but memorize the manual. :0)
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Ackbar is Back
The Admiral's Holoprojector
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 11:08 AM
That leaves me with little to do but memorize the manual. :0)
This invalidates my point how? There are certainly elements to the SW verse I wouldn't want fully quantified (the Force) but I have no problem with enumerating the rest. Is it impossible to enjoy real-world fiction simply because there's not fantasy element involved?
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The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 11:11 AM
This invalidates my point how?
The point is not always to invalidate someone else's point of view. The point is, there are several ways to look at something. Not every reader demands data. Several, like me, use the data to support other more interesting aspects of the storyline. And the other point is, whereas some readers don't want the Force quantified, other readers might pick other things they don't want quantified. It's subjective - and a bit of a crap shoot.
My point is really not made as a debate to yours, only that I question the need for the debate :0) but that's me. I'm a bit of an ###.
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 11:19 AM
And, if you will forgive me for saying, it is my job, and that of any fan, to analyze and question your work. It's a sign we care.
And I'm glad you do. Thank you. Most fans actually don't get into that level of detail, but if that's what you enjoy, good for you.
But there's a line you seem to have missed in my responses.
It's a snapshot of the GAR in that period only. So what we've written doesn't stop another writer creating something for the Imperial era . We haven't specified a maximum number or any other detail.
DM has picked it up.
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Ackbar is Back
The Admiral's Holoprojector
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 11:24 AM
It's a snapshot of the GAR in that period only. So what we've written doesn't stop another writer creating something for the Imperial era . We haven't specified a maximum number or any other detail.
Yes, I believe this was mentioned on the TFN thread. I can live with the scenario if no exact number or upper limit is known exactly. I still disagree with your's and DM's interpritation of the universe's subjectivity, but I suppose I can understand it.
Thank you for your responses.
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The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 11:28 AM
Well, to be fair, my interpretation of the universe's subjectivity may not be Karen's. Her ideas just set me off in a direction...
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 11:30 AM
the TFN thread
I thought I recognised the voice.
But you are setting precedent.
But I will argue with you on this point. No, I'm not. Nor is Ryan. We haven't set a precedent. Every writer has had to face this over the years, and it happens in every media franchise. I'm the latest in a long line, as is Ryan. So don't lumber us with the whole burden, please...
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The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 11:36 AM
Also, I should point out that I might not be exactly Karen's target reader, but I end up reading and enjoying such novels all the same. She has probably gleaned a few details about me - I'm not ...well...solely concerned about the technical details, although I like them sprinkled in my literary granola. I'm also not of military stock, though at one time, I really wanted to be. The end result is, the appeal can be wider than those just needing answers to all the questions. The answers provided can spur my own mind to find my own.
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 11:36 AM
Well, to be fair, my interpretation of the universe's subjectivity may not be Karen's. Her ideas just set me off in a direction
No, I'm with you on this one. I know Ryan is too, even though he's rather quiet at the moment. He's blogged on it too.
I'm a very pragmatic gal. I'm also OCD. I use my conscious mind to stop OCD dictating my life. I can separate my impulses from what I know I have to do to live in the regular world. I use the same technique for coming to terms with Things That Do Not Compute For Karen and Things That Really Don't Matter More Than Real Wars. What you've blogged is pretty well the mental process I go through each time I leave the house.
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The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 11:44 AM
What you've blogged is pretty well the mental process I go through each time I leave the house.
It's funny, but I am they same way about other areas, namely work...oh but wait - that is the same thing for you :0) Perfectionism can be staggering, but in doses, can be quite helpful. It's just finding the average. That perfect average. gah - did it again.
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The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 11:52 AM
Ha! Poor Ryan :0) That's an interesting question to me that I brought up with Haligad (Abel), namely, who are the "SME's" if you will - the continuity consultants. I know Leland Chee must be one, and Ryan is yours. I've often wondered if someone has come up with a nice tidy Visio doc - you know - like a sprawling org chart, that puts each character in their respective frames of mind, timeframe, marital status, breathing status, etc etc etc. If there is, I'd rather like to hang one in my bathoom as a poster...
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 12:00 PM
Well, Ryan's no longer at LucasArts, so he doesn't have to answer any of my questions...unless I beat it out of him with a lead pipe.
Leland is my minder now. I drive him crazy too, bless him. But there is a magic thingie that he maintains, a CD called the Holocron, updated twice a year. Even so, there are umpteen people working on SW stories every day, and so the continuity changes every day, and there is no way to stay in touch on that except for Leland to see all the stuff and for us to e-mail him when we think we might be laying continuity mines.
We could mind-meld. But that's the wrong franchise. Unless you count Jedi, and I'm a Mando girl, so I don't think Jedi would let me play...
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 12:07 PM
Sorry, DM, I should have said, "Yes, there is a chart, and it's the Holocron."
But it's 650 throbbing megs of info. Let me quote some of the intro screen data when I load it:
Sources: 1,018
Characters: 7,633
Planets: 3,311
Creatures: 1,190
Vehicles: 2,202
Weapons: 1,031
I haven't blown any confidentiality by revealing that. But you can see the maze we have to negotiate every day. And it's actually bigger than that now - that was the May tally.
All hail to Leland for keeping this under control.
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